Your Blood Work Is “Normal”—Could You Still Have a Heart Attack? | Dr. Jack Wolfson
You exercise. You eat well. You feel great. Your blood work comes back “normal.” So why are seemingly healthy people still having heart attacks?
Cardiologist Dr. Jack Wolfson is back on Crackin’ Backs—and this conversation challenges some of the assumptions many of us have about what it actually means to be heart healthy.
Wolfson argues that a standard cholesterol panel may be only a small part of the cardiovascular picture. His approach looks deeper at markers such as ApoB, Lp(a), inflammation, homocysteine, omega-3 status, metabolic health and other factors when assessing cardiovascular risk.
But that's only where the conversation starts.
We get into some of today's most debated heart-health questions:
Can you have “normal” cholesterol and still be at risk?
What do ApoB and Lp(a) actually tell us?
Are statins being prescribed too aggressively—or are they saving lives?
Does a coronary calcium score of zero really mean you're safe?
What does Wolfson think about GLP-1 drugs and their cardiovascular benefits?
Could COVID or post-COVID dysautonomia/POTS have lasting cardiovascular implications?
Why can someone be lean, athletic and incredibly fit—and still have a heart attack?
And what should you actually be testing if your goal isn't simply to avoid disease—but to protect your heart for decades?
Wolfson doesn't shy away from controversy. He questions conventional approaches to statins and coronary calcium testing, discusses where he believes mainstream cardiology falls short, and explains why he favors a much broader, root-cause approach to cardiovascular risk.
And one of the most surprising moments has nothing to do with cholesterol:
Could something as simple as when you go to bed affect your heart-attack risk? Wolfson discusses research linking inconsistent sleep timing with cardiovascular risk—and what that might mean for your daily routine.
This isn't about creating fear.
It's about asking a better question:
If you feel healthy today, how do you know your heart actually is?
Watch to the end, then tell us in the comments:
What's the ONE heart-health number or test you think everyone over 40 should know?
👇 Join the conversation.
If you value conversations that challenge conventional thinking about heart health, longevity, nutrition, human performance and preventive medicine, subscribe to Crackin’ Backs. New conversations every week.
And share this episode with the person in your life who says, “I'm healthy—my blood work is normal.”
We are two sports chiropractors, seeking knowledge from some of the best resources in the world of health. From our perspective, health is more than just “Crackin Backs” but a deep dive into physical, mental, and nutritional well-being philosophies.
Join us as we talk to some of the greatest minds and discover some of the most incredible gems you can use to maintain a higher level of health. Crackin Backs Podcast
Dr. Spencer Baron (00:00.95)
You exercise, you feel great, your blood work comes back normal. Could you still be developing heart disease without knowing it? Today we're going to find out. Dr. Jack Wolfson is back on Kraken Backs. Since our last conversation, the heart health discussion has expanded: Apo B, LPA, coronary calcium, HRV, GLP1s now, and post-COVID cardiovascular concerns. But the real question is simple. How do you know your heart?
is actually healthy before something goes wrong. Doctor Jack, welcome back.
Dr. Jack Wolfson (00:34.802)
Thank you so much, Dr. Spencer and Dr. Terry. It's a pleasure to be on. And just love all the stuff you guys are doing. Love the shows, love the interviews. And I think it's a great time as far as information's concerned. I think all this information that people are getting, some people may be you know, again, frustrated by maybe too much information, right? Back in the nineteen seventies, you went to your doctor and like it was my way or the highway, like you had nowhere else to go. Now you've got everything to do, right? You go onto the internet, you go onto your favorite AI plan.
platform, maybe you do three different AI platforms, then you compare what one AI says to the other AI about your treatment plan. but I I certainly believe in in this information age and how amazing it is and for us to really to be informed about what's the best decisions for us. So it's very exciting. And so thanks again for having me on.
Dr. Spencer Baron (01:24.15)
Always great. Let's say you got a forty five year old patient, they exercise, they feel great, their routine blood work looks good, but how do you how confident should that person be that their heart is actually healthy and you know what you know, what could that annual physical be missing?
Dr. Jack Wolfson (01:42.355)
Well, that's a great point. And they should feel confident that if they're eating well and they're exercising, those are two massive areas where people can impact their health and their wellness. And so that that's important. So people could have some sense of confidence based on that. But to say that their routine blood work comes back okay, that's definitely not good enough. And we all know people who ate well and exercised.
And then had a heart attack or dropped dead candidly. So I am a big believer in doing the most advanced testing in the world, looking at all of these different metrics to make sure we're on track for heart health and longevity. It's like if you took your car in to the, to the, you know, to the dealership and you said, hey, check my car and make sure it's okay.
And they did one thing, they checked the gas tank. Right, you wouldn't be very confident that your car is good for another 10,000 miles. But if you take your car to the dealership and you say, Yeah, gimme, gimme the ninety-nine point diagnostic.
Give me the 199 point diagnostic. Well, the more metrics that you're checking, the more metrics they're checking, the more confident you are that your car is gonna make it. Now, there's no guarantees. But that being said, I love checking the most advanced metrics in the world. I love looking at all the intracellular vitamins, minerals, and proteins and fats, and the massive amount of toxin panels and gut panels. I love coming in with a whole stack of data, and then we look at the back.
Things about the individual, and how do we improve those bad markers? And if we do so, that's our metric of success.
Dr. Spencer Baron (03:36.713)
Apo B is you know, a hot biomarker. And if you're under fifty, healthy, active, and and yet your standard cholesterol looks normal, should Apo B still be routinely tested? And what might that reveal?
Dr. Jack Wolfson (03:51.033)
Apple B is a good metric to have. But the problem with mainstream is that it it only represents a nail for them to hammer with a pharmaceutical.
Because the goals and the guidelines as they're set up right now, there's really no way that a person could get to those levels without at least one pharmaceutical class, typically starting off with statin drugs, and then adding in a second class, which is the PCS canine inhibitors, are typically where people go. A third class would be things that block cholesterol absorption from the gut, something like azetomib.
Now, as it relates to I mean a lot of these different things, what my goal really is, is that I want to figure out why your Apo B is what it is, and if it needs improvement, well let's go after the root cause as to why it is elevated. But as it relates to the pharmaceuticals, and I obviously I'd love to dive more into this about what are these pharmaceutical approaches of what people are using, but to answer
Your question, I like the metrics as I said. APOB is one of the metrics. LP little A is one of the metrics. there's vitamin K2 as a metric, there's omega-3 as a metric, there's homocysteine as a metric, there's insulin levels as a metric, right? There's there's really there's there's hundreds of different data points that we can get and we should get if we really want to make sure we're on track.
Dr. Spencer Baron (05:31.831)
There's so many people that come in and say they're on statins and they say I mean, you s you were about to allude to the medication was there is there something that you wanna say about that? 'Cause I know you how you f have a feeling, I know how your your perspective is.
Dr. Jack Wolfson (05:48.306)
Well, let's take a look at statins. So statin drugs lower numbers down. That's not a debate. Statin drugs inhibit an enzyme in the liver called HMG CoA reductase. And when you inhibit that enzyme, you shut down the production of cholesterol. That's the mechanism of action. And
Also, in that is you shut down the production of CoQ10, very important molecule structure for the mitochondria, for all the things that mitochondria does. You also inhibit the production of heme A, which is another protein in the electron transport chain inside the mitochondria. You also interfere with the way that you modulate proteins.
And that affects how proteins work. You interfere with the function of vitamin K, which is why there's data that shows that people who are on statins they have a higher risk of osteoporosis. You interfere with insulin metabolism and utilization, that's why statin drugs increase blood sugar levels and increase the risk of diabetes. That's been proven in many studies as well. So
Those are all of the effects of what happens when you shut down the production of of you know when you shut down that enzyme, HMG coi reductase, that's that's kind of like what we know. Another one is of course is a protein called dolacol, which is a very important steroid-like actually molecule that's in the substantia nigra of the midbrain, which is why there are studies that showed statin drugs increase the risk of Parkinson's-like disorders. So ultimately
Dr. Spencer Baron (07:31.521)
So yeah. No, I was just gonna ask you b I was gonna ask you because some sometimes the you know, a patient will go, yeah, what they told me to take a coenzyme q and or co q ten or whatever you wanna call. Is that enough?
Dr. Jack Wolfson (07:45.852)
You know, I think the reason why you guys like having me on is because I tend to talk like your colleagues that you graduated with. And when you say that, Spencer, I kinda like to say that an analogy we would use is I'm gonna take a hammer and I'm gonna keep hitting you on the foot and I'm gonna tell you to take an anvil because it's good for the pain.
Dr. Spencer Baron (07:53.303)
Yes.
Dr. Jack Wolfson (08:13.24)
So here's here's the here's the hammer, the statin drug, and it's leading to the side effect. But instead of removing the hammer, I'm gonna give you something, I'm gonna give you coQ10 to deal with it. So and the reality is is that I mean there there's so many flaws with that, of course, because the the CoQ10 the body makes is not the CoQ10 that you swallow in a capsule. It's not, it's not.
And then the but the fundamental thing is is that why would we want to reduce our cholesterol levels down? Why would we even want to do that in the first place? Our body, is our body making a mistake? Are we a genetic abnormality? Are we a defect? Are they- I mean, does you know a hundred million people qualify for statin drugs? Are they all defective, you know, humans? So
Fundamentally and again, let th that's the whole side effect profile. But let's talk for a second. Do statin drugs actually work to do what matters? Not do they lower numbers down? We know that. The question is: do statin drugs lower your risk of having a heart attack or having a stroke or dying? And the answer is according to meta-analyses, they do, but it's by a little bit.
That's the reality. Now it's more the the benefits, if you will, go to the people who have the worst amount of disease right now. So the people who have the most amount of coronary disease, maybe they've already had stents, bypass surgeries, they've had three heart attacks. The literature tells us those people benefit more than those people on are on placebo. But even then.
The benefit is not tremendous. And if we say that the benefit, for example, is we reduce statin drugs reduce annual heart attack risk in those people from 6% to 5%. Because that's what the data'll show across all these different studies. And for primary prevention, the data is much less. The data is is fractions of a percent.
Dr. Jack Wolfson (10:36.38)
But we we don't wanna be in the six percent heart attack group or the five percent heart attack group. We wanna know who's got the plan for the zero percent chance of heart attacks.
And that's the world that, you know, the three of us operate in. You know? The other world, they go to the cardiologist, it's a 10-minute office visit. That's all about documentation. And there's no discussion because the the cardiologists are not trained in root cause. All they're trained in is dispensing pharmaceuticals. So it's the writing of the pharmaceutical, and then they'll spend some time defending their position on that against people. Then they'll do the sales tactics, then they'll do the bully tactics.
Dr. Spencer Baron (11:13.783)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Jack Wolfson (11:18.246)
Take this or die when that is purely a lie. Purely a lie. It is malpractice, but it happens every moment of every day.
Dr. Spencer Baron (11:29.261)
That's why we love Jack. All right. I stopped hammering the toe. So let's talk about LP little A. How does that fit into this conversation?
Dr. Jack Wolfson (11:36.422)
Okay. Well, and and let me and let me circle back to if you don't mind hold hold that because let me talk about the PCS canines. Because this is interesting because most recently the FDA approved a drug called Lipfendra.
Dr. Spencer Baron (11:49.45)
yes. Please do.
Dr. Jack Wolfson (11:58.524)
And where they come up with these names, again, I know you guys all laugh behind our backs and stuff like that. And it's it really is hilarious. And what they do is right, is that they pull all these different people, because I've done some of these before many, many, many years ago. They tell you about a drug and they tell you what the generic name is and what it does, and then they start giving you suggestions of of names that you like. And then somehow that comes up with the name. So this is Lipfendra. Lipfendra. And Lipfendra.
Dr. Terry (12:02.236)
Ha ha ha.
Dr. Jack Wolfson (12:27.278)
Is an oral PCS canine inhibitor. So the PCS canine is a protein your liver makes and it signals to break down LDL receptors on the liver, the catcher's mitts. So if you inhibit PCS canine, you have more catcher's mitts to pull LDL out of circulation. And the injectable drug that does that is called Rapatha.
And Rappatha prevents the breakdown of LDL receptors. And Rapatha was studied, and the study results were in 2018, and they looked at people who got Rappatha versus placebo, but everybody was on statin drug. So we don't know anything about Rappatha, what it does by itself.
We don't know I don't want to take a statin, but I'll take Rapatha. Okay. We know it lowers numbers down, but we don't know if it increases heart attacks, decreases heart attacks, no effect on heart attacks. We have no idea what it does. It has not been studied.
Now, of interest, when added to statin drug, the original trial called Fourier showed that Rapatha plus statin, leading to an LDL around 30, more people died in the Rappatha group. Less heart attacks, less strokes, less procedures, but more people died. Okay. Fast forward to Lipfendra. Lipfendra is approved by the FDA and has zero outcomes data.
We know it lowers LDL down. We know it lowers APOB down by sixty percent. But we do not know if it increases heart attacks, decreases heart attacks, has no effect on heart attacks, and we're we have no idea. The FDA will say, well, we're just going off the Rappatha data. And the Rappatha data showed more people died. So I would think before FDA approval, and this is where I would say if if b if I was talking to Bobby Kennedy.
Dr. Jack Wolfson (14:34.33)
I would say, how'd this thing get through, man? And he would say, Jack, you know exactly how it got through. And I would say, Okay, I know how it got through. I I I get it. so that being said, that's Lipfendra. Now, back when I was a cardiology fellow in 2001, statin drugs, of course, were were
Still somewhat in the infancy phase. I mean, yes, they've been around since the late eighties, but you know, d different studies would come out in the nineties and put start pushing the more aggressive use based on trivial benefits, alleged benefits. That's this isn't even to go full conspiratorial and say the whole thing is made up in a trillion dollar industry, which we can entertain that thought. But aside from that, let's take the value for what it is. But
In 2000, 1999, there was a statin drug that was produced that was called the trade name was Baycol by Bayer. Bayer Baycol. And the drug was out for 20 months, approved by the FDA, used by
Hundreds of thousands of people, maybe millions of people. And then in 2001, 20 months after it was released, the FDA pulled it after it had data that found that it directly led to 31 people dying from the drug, side effects from the drug. So they pulled it. So I'm not saying people are gonna live or die on Lipvendra. It's probably gonna wind up
having a small amount of benefit like Rapatha does and it's easier because it's a and it's an oral and not an injectable and patient compliance will be better and Merkel i make a lot of money from it. But you know, again, I'm a root cause cardiologist and none of these pharmaceuticals are root cause.
Dr. Spencer Baron (16:27.543)
Hm. Back to the L P little A and how it fits into the conversation.
Dr. Jack Wolfson (16:30.95)
Thank you. So LP little A is a genetic marker. And I'm one of the people I I love our genetics. I'm so grateful for our genetics, right? We can run and jump and see and feel and you know, we can be part of the process of making babies. We're pretty special, special creations. However, we got here, we're pretty freaking special. And our DNA is spectacular. Now, why would our DNA
Code for 15% of the population to have elevated LPA. There has to be some reason that 15%, this isn't some gene mutation that leads to a third eyeball, you know, or some rare form of cancer. This is this is something that 15% of people have. Now, what LPA likely does.
Is that it is a it does help with coagulability. In the case of trauma, if you are bleeding out, that those people probably have some benefit as far as survival, which is why it's remained. Or maybe in the case of a pregnant woman.
Those women with LP little A in a Paleolithic time had less chances of you know hemorrhage and dying, and therefore the gene survived. So let's move now to the 21st century and say, well, okay, women aren't as likely to die, men aren't as likely to die have trauma. Is there benefit to it? Or there may not be benefit to it. We don't know.
We do know that it increases the risk of cardiovascular disease because it is a hyper coagulable factor. and then
Dr. Jack Wolfson (18:28.964)
In addition to that, there may be something else that is inherently more dangerous about it as a lipid particle. But the literature really says that it's not just LPA alone, it's other things that go along with it. So if someone has LPA and inflammation, they're at much higher risk than if you have LPA and no inflammation. So that's kind of the story of LPA. I think it's a marker everybody should know. I think in some ways it could be most.
motivational for people. Hey, I have that. I think it does explain some semblance of family history. But I'm again I just want to reiterate, I believe our genetics are perfect.
However, we got here, our genetics are perfect. It's all the epigenetics that are the problem. And family history is true because we eat, live, and think like our family members. We eat the same garbage food, live the same unhealthy lifestyle, have all the mental, you know, mindset issues, childhood trauma, PTSD, emotional traumas that our family members did, and therefore we suffer the same diseases.
Dr. Spencer Baron (19:39.575)
Good explanation and let's talk beyond a a a standard lipid panel, you know, what what should be on everybody's kinda cardiovascular dashboard and especially now?
Dr. Jack Wolfson (19:49.372)
Yeah, again, you know, and by the way, statin drugs increase LP little A. That's that that's in the literature. PCSK nines decrease LPA by about twenty to thirty percent. Time release niacin decreases LPA by about
Ten to fifteen percent. I've seen some dramatic changes personally in my patients without pharmaceuticals. I on my whole plan of what I do. Like recently I did a a webinar where I showed, you know, the data of somebody whose level was 72 and on on next visit it was 27. Like that doesn't happen. and if you ask any cardiologist, they will deny that it's even a possibility. But nonetheless, I've got I've got the person, I've got his testimonial, you know, yada yada.
The other thing though is that for somebody with with LP little A, I like to really work on the coagulability side, and not with aspirin or a pharmaceutical, but that's where I think products like natokinase, serapeptase, some of these fibrinolytic enzymes can be beneficial. I'm I'm a big big fan of this product called Artericil, which is a unique unique form of seaweed that actually many cardiologists who are non-holistic still still recommend that particular product. They've got about a thousand cardiologists.
Who are actively recommending their product, those people at Cal Roy. and I'll be talking about their particular product actually at the event in in Florida coming up in in November. But in any case, there's the the more data that we get.
The more I think it tells us about are we on track. You know, can can Spencer and you know, you know, and Terry, can you guys plan a family trip, you know, for five years ago, five years from now, with full confidence that you're gonna be on there? Well, if you have a whole data set of metrics that says, your numbers look really good.
Dr. Jack Wolfson (21:40.188)
Well then maybe you're like, you know, I'm not gonna take out insurance on that trip. I'm gonna be on that trip to Europe in five years, I'll be just fine. Yet if your data set looks bad, you may say, Yeah, you know, maybe I will take out that insurance on the trip. I don't know. I apologize for the roosters in the background. The roosters, they you know, you think they o it's only in the morning, they go all day long, but Anywho.
Dr. Spencer Baron (21:45.136)
huh.
Dr. Terry (22:00.286)
Yeah.
Dr. Spencer Baron (22:00.909)
I think it's a great sound effect. Wake up everybody. So I the regul regular cardiovascular, you know, panel or standard lipid panel is is what most doctors do. What would you suggest as a list on someone's dashboard for twenty twenty six?
Dr. Jack Wolfson (22:04.294)
Yes, yes.
Dr. Jack Wolfson (22:16.432)
Yes. Yeah, and that's you know, so you know, things that you know, maybe insurance cover, you know, homocysteine is a good marker to check. When elevated risk factor, the answer is is better B vitamins and better methylators. And I do everything natural. I've kind of moved beyond, you know, synthetic vitamins and stuff like that. I use, you know, organ based food, organ-based supplements, you know, fish fish row in a capsule, you know, stuff like that. Food first mentality.
There are again many different markers of oxidative stress, you know, the rusting of the body, oxidized LDL, myeloperoxidase, urine for peroxides. There are markers you know of of inflammation. HSCRP, for example, would be the best marker of inflammation. There's the intracellular vitamins, minerals. I love checking fatty acids, right? So look at your omega-3 index, and if that's high and you're doing
It with food, you're in a good place. If it's low, you got it. Eat more seafood. Vitamin D, everybody knows, is a tremendous marker. But the answer is not to take vitamin D supplements if it's low, the answer is to get more sunshine onto your solar panel and to build up the entire solar system, which your body is. It's a solar system built to collect light from the sun.
And you fuel your solar system with food, with the correct food. So the sun goes on to the man. I'm a big outside guy, man. Big outside and that's by the way, it's a free strategy. And the three of us live in places where, you know, we we we you know we can achieve that goal.
Dr. Spencer Baron (23:49.037)
And you're you're big on being outside, right?
Dr. Jack Wolfson (24:04.784)
Me more so 'cause I'm in Costa Rica, which is why I'm here. but for our colleagues and people listening who are in y you know, my hometown of Chicago, Spencer, are you a New Yorker originally? Okay, I I I I thought so.
Dr. Spencer Baron (24:18.921)
I was. Yeah, well, before I was eleven years old. Yeah.
Dr. Jack Wolfson (24:22.31)
Yeah. So, you know, so again, like your parents, you know, it was a blessing to get you out of there. And those are all, you know, you know, good cities, and I don't want to denigrate the people who live there. It's just it's not a healthy place to live. You're not gonna live long in those places. So, you know, that's what we really tend to focus on. you know, again, you know, as far as getting that solar panel in the sun. And
Listen, all we can do is give people information, right? You guys give, you know, you know, patients and clients information. This is all information. What they do with it is up to them. But I'm telling you right now that you know, you gotta move to a sunny climate. For every five to seven weeks, you are in the Midwest in January, my hometown of Chicago, Milwaukee, Minneapolis, you know, Calgary, Winnipeg, Toronto. You gotta spend five to seven days.
in a in a warm climate, somewhere preferably equatorial, and and you gotta be outside. And these are the strategies that we use. Now what's interesting, what happens too, Spencer and and Terry, is that when you are outside in the sun, the solar panel converts cholesterol in the panel, the the sun hits the panel, which is your skin, and it converts cholesterol into vitamin D. Vitamin D levels go up and then cholesterol naturally goes down.
So sometimes abnormal cholesterol in Apo B is a sunshine deficiency syndrome.
Dr. Spencer Baron (25:50.497)
Interesting. I did not know that. That's great to know.
Dr. Jack Wolfson (25:52.784)
And that's co again, it's totally it's totally free and the literature is there that supports it. And it's common sense. It's just common sense things. But the Ds have really lost the the common sense, obviously, if they ever had it.
Dr. Terry (26:09.865)
Hey let me ask you, when when should someone consider a coronary calcium scan and does a and does a score of zero truly mean you're clear?
Dr. Spencer Baron (26:09.933)
Go ahead, Terry.
Dr. Jack Wolfson (26:22.68)
the answer twofold question, right? I never recommend a coronary calcium scan. So the answer is never on part A. you know, with that. And then part B, if you have a score of a zero on a coronary calcium scan, you still may have soft plaque and you still may be at risk, although a score of zero prognostically.
Is better than a score of a hundred, which is better than a score of a thousand, you know, or above. So the higher the number, the higher the risk. The question is, what do you do with that number? And in mainstream cardiology, everybody with any number gets a statin drug. people with a score of a zero will still get recommended a drug with their mantra of lower for longer. And
They came up with lower for longer, which means that tens of millions of more people qualify for statin therapy. And if you don't achieve your goal, then they'll add on other drugs. And they're even recommending starting this in children. And I think we've got a real problem.
Dr. Terry (27:39.895)
my god. So if their cardiologist is recommending this this calcium scan, what would you say they would a better something that's better or a better imaging that they should ask for?
Dr. Jack Wolfson (27:52.752)
As far as imaging is concerned, you can do ultrasound. You can do CIMT where you can check your carotids and stuff like that. But the question you know, these are all as we talked about before, these are just metrics. The the ninety nine point
Assessment when you go to the car dealership. So, what are the 99 points? Like we talked about. These are markers of inflammation, oxidative stress, homocysteine, LP little A, apolipoprotein BA ratios, intracellular vitamins and minerals, proteins and fats in the omega-3s. For example, vitamin K2 has been studied.
And vitamin K2 keeps calcium in your bones and out of your arteries and even can contribute to plaque reversal. Wouldn't you want to know what your K2 level is floating around in your blood? Wouldn't you want to know what your K2 level is inside your cells? I would and I do. What about our gut? We know gut microbiome.
Is not only linked to cardiovascular health or disease, it's also linked to brain health or disease or cancer risk, and all these various things. Wouldn't you want to know about your gut microbiome? What about leaky gut or intestinal hyperpermeability? If you have factors of intestinal hyperpermeability like anti lipopolysaccharide antibodies, which means that you are getting bacterial endo and exotoxins into your bloodstream, all linked to heart disease and more.
Wouldn't you want to know? And therefore fix it? Yeah. what about all the toxins? What if you're loaded with mold mycotoxins? Plastic. Plastic is a massive risk factor for cardiovascular disease and everything else. Wouldn't you want to know how much plastic is in your body circulating around in the form of vi bisphenol A or phthalates? Pesticides, glyphosate. Do you want to know that? What about metals? You know? What about mercury, lead, arsenic, cadmium?
Dr. Jack Wolfson (29:50.416)
Aluminum. Would you want to know that? So these advanced metrics, people just they're they're either they don't know, or it's not accessible because these things are not covered by insurance. They can be definitely an investment, which I would encourage people to get. But these are all super, you know, important metrics. And we don't have to radiate ourselves to find out. And coronary artery calcium, that's a that's a diagnosis of a lifetime. That represents the the
Coronary artery disease that's been forming since you were in your mother's belly. It doesn't tell us about what's going on right now. I want to know do I have oxidative stress right now? Inflammation? Right now. Homocysteine? Right now. I want to know my numbers right now. And coronary calcification testing doesn't tell us that. So it is interesting that insurance doesn't pay for CAC testing.
Why not? Why don't they pay for it? Because they know it's not a good test. They know that it doesn't help people and their outcomes. And they know it's what's called a loss leader. So the loss leader means the hospital sells it to the individual for $99 and people go after it like crazy. But you guys are both in the industry. Do you know how much it costs?
I and I don't know either, but let's just say how much is it does it cost to run a CT scan on someone? All the scheduling, the technician, the equipment to do so. Let's just say if you were to break it down like an accountant, let's just say that the the it costs the system $750.
To perform this particular test that they sell for $100. Why would they do that? Because they're good people? Because they care about you, Spencer? Because they care about Spencer, he's such a nice guy. We're gonna give him this deal. We're gonna give him this deal. They know it's a loss leader because they know it's gonna turn into massive revenue once they start billing insurance. Now you have a billable diagnosis: coronary artery disease. Now
Dr. Jack Wolfson (32:07.982)
now we can do nuclear stress tests, we can do angiograms, we can do copies, we can do follow-ups, and it's just the the gravy train, you know, gets gets gets moving, leaves the station. So hopefully that's that clears up my thoughts on CAC testing. but
Dr. Spencer Baron (32:26.165)
That was good. Yeah.
Dr. Jack Wolfson (32:27.836)
But milli but I mean there everybody's getting this test done. You guys are in the trenches too. You know what people are saying, what everybody's talking about this. The other one that kills me too is the Pronovo scan, the total body MRI scan. What would be the possibility of putting your body into a massive magnet, turning on the magnet, having every molecule and atom and electron and proton in your body twisted?
And then released and then gaining images from that. they may find a tumor. you know, the the marketing behind it, I don't know if I ever told you guys this story. Even before I ever became a holistic practitioner, and I was driving on the highway in Chicago, and there's billboards everywhere, right? And the billboard I would put up there says, Got a headache? It could be a brain tumor. Dial 1-800, you know, brain CT.
How many guys, Spencer, are driving how many men and women are driving past that sign and they're like, I have a headache right now? And they drive right into our drive-thru location. We would have made an absolute fortune from doing that. Don't steal that idea, Spencer. That's my idea. So okay. So anyways, so what we would say is you know, again, is that
Dr. Spencer Baron (33:43.031)
Yeah.
Not not today.
Dr. Jack Wolfson (33:52.39)
You know, I everybody's on board about this. And to the to the typical cardiologist, all it is is that okay, you've got coronary calcification, you're in the system, take the drug, keep taking the drug, come back every three to six months, we'll keep checking your levels, and then we'll come up with a vaccine, which is the next thing, is the MRNA vaccine to lower down your cholesterol levels, you know, to close to zero. I don't think it's gonna be a good strategy, but people will do it.
Dr. Spencer Baron (34:18.325)
So twisted. now is a hot time to bring up COVID. People are still reporting palpitations, exercise intolerance, POTS like symptoms and abnormal HRV. you know, but here's the controversial question. Could COVID leave la long lasting cardiovascular damage and if it can, are we actually testing for it? And do we are we even doing enough?
Dr. Jack Wolfson (34:43.406)
I think we we we don't know obviously what's happening to the long term for these people. Whether it's from the the actual whatever COVID was or what the treatment was or or the preventive injection was for it. We don't really know what the long term is gonna is gonna show here. What we what we do know is that people are struggling for a whole variety of reasons.
And they do develop, you know, POTS. They do develop dysautonomia, which really is we're talking about this part of the brain and the neurologic system called the autonomics that leads to a constellation of symptoms. In this case, maybe you're talking about POTS. And I've seen probably a dozen cases of POTS related to either COVID or the shot. And we just kind of go
Through the same methodology, right? Just you know, what I call the one hundred year heart method. Eat well, live well, think well, do the most advanced testing in the world, use evidence-based supplements and biohacking strategies, and that's the healing method for for everything. as far as testing actually, you know, kind of what's going on f I I think there may be some things again, could we test our levels of spike protein and stuff like that and
Do do biohacks like a therapeutic plasma exchange help to pull out spike protein and stuff like that? Can we use products like nato kinase and and fibroinalytics to help break up some of the spike? Yeah, I mean th there there may be some some some signals that point to some benefit there. biohacks like you know, retraining, it's very popular in the you know chiropractic neurology space for people to do a lot of this. you know, again, retraining of the
autonomic nervous system as it relates to this, to the limbic system as it relates to this and and crossover in those particular areas. so I think there's room for all of that. But I think one thing that I'll make real clear for everybody is that we need to question everything. We need to accept our patients for the truth that they're telling us. And it is always our job to figure out why.
Dr. Jack Wolfson (37:00.21)
So back in the day, right, somebody came to me and they're like, I'm having palpitations, skips, flips, my heart races out of nowhere. And so yeah, we'll run some tests, everything looks clear, and I and you prescribe Prozac, you know, get out of my get out of my office, crazy person. Now I look back at it on obviously with a lot of remorse for the way that I behaved. But again, I you know, that's all in the rear view mirror and that's the way that I was trained. but for the person who comes in with you know and and they appear to be crazy.
We gotta continue to peel back that onion. We gotta try and figure out why. You know, contemporary of of your guys, John D'Anafrio, who was the head of the chiropractic neurology board, brilliant, brilliant chiropractor, great, great, great man. His his you know mantra, and I was and I was I had the pleasure of knowing him, was, you know, there's you know, Doctor One More Step. Like we're always taking one more step to to to look into this, to go to go deeper.
Dr. Spencer Baron (37:42.593)
Yeah.
Dr. Jack Wolfson (37:57.564)
To keep looking. And I will tell you now, as long as it's on my head, whenever I think about anything right now, I always think about living in a home with water damage mold andor bacteria as a root cause of why so many people are sick. So as people get you know this message right now, I would highly encourage you to look into water damage mold andor bacteria into your home. And don't think do do not do not rest on the fact that you don't have it.
Consider yourself you do have it, and then you need the testing to prove that you don't. That's the way you have to ro brand new house, it doesn't matter. Houses are built out of popsicle sticks. You live in a popsicle stick house, you're toast.
Dr. Terry (38:46.315)
Let's talk about GLP ones which is a very hot topic and they're starting to change the health terms and people are starting to talk about not only for weight loss but as a cardiovascular health whatever you want to call it. What's your opinions on the GLP ones?
Dr. Jack Wolfson (39:04.156)
Yeah, I mean, obviously, you guys are giving me a loaded question. You know what my opinion is. And I'm just I I'm a root cause guy, and GLP deficiency is not. One thing that's always concerned me when I started reading the early literature on GLPs was that it was something that slowed gastric motility, gastrointestinal motility. And whenever I think about slowed down gastrointestinal motility, I think about cancer. I think about gastrointestinal cancer.
Dr. Spencer Baron (39:08.396)
Ha ha ha.
Dr. Jack Wolfson (39:34.09)
And at this point, I'm not aware of the signals, but it's early. It's early. And we'll see kind of what happens in the long term. I personally I love eating. Like I'm not a drug addict. I'm not an alcoholic. You know, I I don't have any other addictions that get me, you know, satiated or stimulated. Aside from I enjoy food, real food, of course.
So why would I want to take something that takes away that joy and that pleasure? And then you hear the stories of these people, they tend to lose pleasure for everything. You know, they you know, relationships, their job, family, friends, things that they liked. So
You know, again, it's not a matter of do, you know, do people have precipitous loss weight loss from it? They do. you know, you know, cardiovascular and cardiometabolic metrics get better, outcomes get better, they do. But I just I I I don't I don't see where I would necessarily recommend that. in any way, I never have, of course. people talk about microdosing it. By the way, there are you know natural ways to, you know, to improve on all these functions. One of my favorite supplements.
Is berberine and berberine, berberine, curcumin, risveritrol, turmeric, quercetin, they tend to activate a lot of these different genes, AMPK, SERTUIN genes. They tend to activate a lot of the things that do similar modalities, but they do so in a natural way, as as opposed to a synthetic peptide.
You know, I mean, you could tell, guys, I'm really popular at all these conferences. You know, all the natural conferences where, like, you know, everybody and their mother is selling peptides. Peptides work, they have definitely effects, but I think that they've also got some bad effects that we just don't know yet. In some cases, we do. I mean, we hear case reports and stuff like that all the time. But, you know, the wild west of peptides.
Dr. Jack Wolfson (41:47.332)
I'm just I'm just not there yet. I'm not saying like never, and again, there may be a room and kind of you know, in in like you know, wha what what are the biohacking phases? Like if someone's doing everything inside of our method, eat well, live well, think well, and they're not where they want to be, or maybe they've got some orthopedic issues, guys, right, and they're thinking, I took this GLP, you know, or no excuse me, I took this peptide on my best friend's advice, and I feel like a million bucks. Like Spencer, what are we supposed to say to that guy? Okay, fine.
I'm just I I I'm I'm just not there personally yet. I don't deal with a lot of you know orthopedic issues on people. I'm still gonna you know kind of going after the root cause, you know. So I'll I'll reserve judgment on the whole peptide industry. I think we are in danger really of
You know, kind of being being accused of the things that we accuse others to be. you know, you're just a pharmaceutical pusher. Yeah, well, you're just a, you know, supplement pusher. You're just you know, a a a you know, peptide pusher. You're making plenty of money over here. I'm not afraid of accusations, obviously. but I also look at it, you know, for myself. Like, what would I want to do for myself? you know, you gotta take these various peptides, they're anti agriculture.
Their longevity. Yeah, I'm not gonna take them myself. I'd rather take you know, my capsules of unvaccinated elk, liver, heart, and kidney, as opposed to you know, which is loaded with peptides that my body needs from nature in the perfect amount, as opposed to something made in a in you know in a lab.
Dr. Spencer Baron (43:16.951)
Yeah.
Dr. Spencer Baron (43:27.287)
From China.
Dr. Terry (43:27.862)
Beautiful. yeah, from China. You know, a and I've heard
Dr. Jack Wolfson (43:31.569)
I mean I mean again, I mean I you know, but it's just I you know listen, I mean, people make bad products in the US, they make them in China. I I I guess I would just say that if you're really down and out despite doing most of the things, give things a try, but keep a real close eye on on side effects. And that's maybe where like, you know, all these advanced metrics that we're talking about, they can be the signal that people get before the obvious symptoms show up.
Dr. Terry (44:00.821)
That's you know, that's fantastic. Yeah, I heard you one time talk about you know, you can still be lean and have a problem and and I remember was it Fisk that was a runner that here's this lean guy, super fit, runs marathons and yeah he still had a heart attack. You know, what are what's what's most athletes missing when they assume fitness equals heart health and that we should look be looking at things different?
Dr. Jack Wolfson (44:24.668)
Yeah, that's awesome. Well, I think what happens is most people who do these endurance activities, and I can't speak the Jim Fix is I I don't know the full story as far as like what he was eating or again, th there's so many different factors. You know, what w we know we know that he ran.
and we know that again after that I don't know anything else. So you know how we I I don't know how he ate. I don't know how much sunshine he got, how his sleep was. I don't know if he lived in mold, didn't live in mold. I don't know if he had high levels of plastic, phthalates, parabens, injections, pharmaceuticals, and I don't know his mindset.
I don't know if he was abused as a child. I don't know if he had PTSD for whatever. Like, I don't I know nothing about that guy.
Now, one thing I do know about a lot of endurance athletes is that they're heavy on carbs, but also artificial junk carbs. Like I used to, I used to run marathons and triathlons myself. And there was one race that I used to do down in Tucson, Arizona, and it was a it was a 112-mile bike ride. And this is back around 2003, 2004. And every 15 miles, they had a crispy cream donut stand set up.
Dr. Terry (45:43.54)
No jeez. Wow.
Dr. Jack Wolfson (45:43.73)
Up. But here's the kicker, guys. I stopped at every one of those stands and I ate those. I ate those. This is before, you know, the awakening of Dr. Jack Wolfson, the awakening of me, thanks to thank god for for my wife, Dr. Heather, a chiropractor. you know, so
I think that's, you know, because you know what, you pack a goo, some kind of energy bar. So that's a factor in it as well. Now, there is the TV show that was on years ago called America's Biggest Loser. And that's I don't know if Gillian Michaels was from that show, but Bob Harper was from that show. And Bob Harper
Dr. Spencer Baron (46:08.545)
Yeah, yeah.
Dr. Jack Wolfson (46:28.166)
For all intents and purposes, looks like Iron Man, right? I mean Bob Harper, he's our age, he looks great, he's incredibly fit, you know, maybe he talks so I never really watched the show, but
Talks about diet, you know, he's telling these people, get on the treadmill and run, and they all these obese people and they're whipping them and stuff like that, all at this TV production. And then Bob Harper has a massive heart attack. And then he becomes a huge spokesperson for LP Little A. And LP Little A awareness. And of course, this is simultaneous when Rapatha comes out. This is the only way to lower it down. Stay tuned. I don't know anything about Bob Harper. I know he looks good.
But I don't know how he ate. I don't know what when the cameras were off. I don't know what skeletons were in his closet. I have no idea about his mindset. I do know the guy's in front of a television in a New York studio all the time. In front of a television camera. I know that's not good for all the reasons we already discussed. I don't know what time the guy goes to bed. Get this stat, guys.
Sleep time variability. People who go to sleep, this is new data. People who go to sleep at variable times. One night it's 10 p.m., the next night it's midnight, the next night it's eleven, the next night it's 1230, on and on and on. Sleep variability time. They have double the risk of having a heart attack compared to people who go to sleep at a regular time.
So the person who goes to sleep at variable times has double the risk of the person who goes to sleep every night between 9930. That's a big signal. It's a big factor. And so what do we do with that, right, Dr. Terry? We tell people, hey, this is how you should do it and cut your risk in half compared to those people who don't. And then some people come back and say, What do I do?
Dr. Jack Wolfson (48:34.916)
I'm in sales. I travel. My kids come home at variable times. My wife is a night owl. My husband works the night shift. Listen, all we can do is give them the information, right? You know, in your guys' world, like this is, you know, this is your your diagnosis. This is the plan that I would give you. Follow the plan or don't, you know, I I can't force you.
Dr. Spencer Baron (49:00.522)
Hmm. I like it.
let's see. We're gonna you know what? I was gonna ask you a question, but I'm gonna go right into the rapid fire questions, which mm if you recall, it's gonna require a little more of a brief answer. Are you ready? There's five of All right, here we go. Go. He he just he just got psyched up. There you go. All right, Doctor Jack, what in your opinion is the most misunderstood thing about heart disease?
Dr. Terry (49:19.255)
Go. Look at him. He's all s he's locked in.
Dr. Jack Wolfson (49:32.219)
there's always a root cause and it's not genetic.
Dr. Spencer Baron (49:36.736)
Love it. Question number two. When you are not carrying around propane bottles or large fruit, what is your favorite way to exercise on vacation? Nice. All right, all right. You're either ripping through it. It's good. Question number
Dr. Jack Wolfson (49:47.322)
Mountain bike.
Dr. Jack Wolfson (49:53.508)
I I I mean believe me, I'm happy to talk about all these individual topics as much as you want. I'm so happy you watched that carrying propane tanks and carrying exact fruits. You get all these people, they're inside in the gym, you know, and they're larging around dumbbells and look at me. I'm I'm in the artificial light. I got all the chemicals, all the EMF, I'm in the gym. You know, recent meme said the longest lived people on earth are not in the gym.
Dr. Terry (50:01.368)
Ha ha ha.
Dr. Jack Wolfson (50:22.662)
They're in the garden.
Dr. Spencer Baron (50:24.53)
Yes. Whew. We've been hearing more about that. Super good.
Dr. Terry (50:30.599)
I need to check one thing. What was those fruit you were carrying? 'Cause they were frickin' massive.
Dr. Jack Wolfson (50:36.146)
So that interestingly enough is called a jackfruit and it's
Dr. Spencer Baron (50:40.182)
Ch
Dr. Terry (50:40.885)
okay.
Dr. Jack Wolfson (50:42.148)
It actually, so it's got these big massive seeds inside when it's ripe. And what's crazy is it tastes like you know juicy fruit chewing gum, you know, from back in the day that kind of has that kind of flavor, you know, to it. And I've also have carried around you know racks of of of bananas and then also racks of coconuts as well. So like they'll hit the coconuts off the tree. There'll be six or seven attached to a branch, and those things are are are pretty darn heavy. So here I'm walking around.
Dr. Spencer Baron (50:53.855)
yeah.
Yeah.
Dr. Spencer Baron (51:01.684)
Yeah.
Dr. Jack Wolfson (51:12.042)
Barefoot with the propane tanks, I was wearing my sh with I was wearing sandals, and that's from a company called Grounds. G-R-U-N-D-Z. Reach out to those guys for sponsorship of your podcast. And those are grounding shoes and the sandals, and really they're super comfortable too. so because otherwise I'd be walking on rocks. My 19-year-old, he can walk, you know, walk over hot coals. My 55-year-old feet are a little bit ginger still, so I'm I'm working on that.
Dr. Terry (51:38.615)
There you go. Sorry for interrupting, Sans.
Dr. Spencer Baron (51:41.066)
No, no, no. That was a perfect. That was great. All right, question number three. You get one meal for the rest of your life. I have a feeling it's gonna be a jackfruit. But anyway, no concern about calories, cholesterol, toxins, or longevity. What is Jack eating?
Dr. Jack Wolfson (51:57.536)
Chicago Deep Dish Pizza. Specifically pan pizza from Duwey's Pizzeria. Now there was the chain Unos, like the original Unos came from Chicago, and then they developed the chain Unos, but it's sister restaurants, and these are these are hundred-year-old restaurants, hundred-year-old ovens. And I candidly I've not had this food in a long time. But if to answer your question, it would be a deep dish, Chicago deep dish pan pizza.
Dr. Spencer Baron (52:00.111)
Dr. Terry (52:24.161)
So so we obviously we don't we we don't get in the debate which is better Chicago pizza or New York pizza.
Dr. Spencer Baron (52:25.175)
I'm with ya.
Dr. Jack Wolfson (52:32.378)
I listen, if you're from Chicago, you say Chicago, if you're from everywhere else, you say New York.
Dr. Spencer Baron (52:32.811)
Huh?
Dr. Spencer Baron (52:37.824)
Yeah That's right. Good. Question
Dr. Jack Wolfson (52:41.318)
And I and I'll be happy to have that debate on the next interview. I any time guys. Bring it on. I'll I'll I'll I'll defend that one like I defend anti statin, you know, dialogue.
Dr. Terry (52:45.437)
Ha ha ha.
Dr. Spencer Baron (52:45.472)
There you go.
Dr. Spencer Baron (52:50.762)
Yeah. Of all things. That'll be question number one. All right, question number four. Are you are saturated fats still as evil as you once thought?
Dr. Jack Wolfson (53:02.35)
no, certainly not. And that's interesting because back let me answer this one a little bit longer. Back when I was in w it was around two thousand, I was on a mountain biking trip in Costa Rica with random people. We c we left Chicago, came down to Costa Rica, and the I was thirty years old at the time, and then the head of the trip, he was fifty-four, and I got a coconut, and I open up the coconut, I'm eating the coconut, I offer him some of the coconut, you know, just like this, you know, thick right out of the shell, just delicious, fresh coconut. And he said, I can't eat that, it's too high in saturated fat.
Dr. Spencer Baron (53:06.561)
Yeah.
Dr. Jack Wolfson (53:32.104)
cardiologist said. And I looked at him even back then before I knew anything about natural. I'm like, this is just insanity that, you know, you would think coconut's bad. And then you got and cultivate, you know, coconut is the kind of you know, just the like the poster child for saturated fat really, in addition to eggs and and meat and stuff like that. But islands in the South Pacific, the people live on coconut, fifty percent of their diet is coconut based and they live forever despite the fact they all smoke, you know, Marlboro Reds, you know, courtesy of the American military. So
coconut, saturated fat. I've got no worries about saturated fat. It is part of a healthy overall eat well, live well, think well strategy.
Dr. Spencer Baron (54:12.324)
Excellent answer. Excellent. That was great, Jack. Thanks. All right, last question. Question number five. You make it to 100 years old. Your heart is still ticking and you're sitting around a table with your family. What has to hap what has to have happened in your life for you to look around and say, yeah, that was a hell of a ride.
Dr. Jack Wolfson (54:35.928)
man, that's that's a tough one. And that's a real tough one to answer, you know, quickly. And I I'm a little bit stumped. You know, I guess what has to happen is that, yes, I am in mental and physical good shape. Probably not mountain biking, probably not surfing. but let's say I'm enjoyable to be around and I'm actually self-sufficient. I think that would be a good physical thing.
As I would look around though, I would hope that we are in a place where the message that we're giving people is always primary. And that and that's what won the day. It wasn't the pharmaceutical industry that won the day. It wasn't the mandates that won the day. It was natural root cause health that really was the victor. And
To look around at your family, what would be your children and your grandchildren and your great grandchildren and know that they are reaping those benefits, that they are living their best life because of it, that I think would be the ultimate goal that that I would have in that scenario.
Dr. Spencer Baron (55:50.124)
Doctor Jack Wolfson, that was one hell of an ending and I'll tell you, man, thank you. You're a definitely a gift to healthcare in the way we should be looking at it. Thank you very much.
Dr. Jack Wolfson (56:02.344)
Well, I appreciate you guys so much for having me on and for me and allowing me to get this message out there, you know, you know, to the world. And that's all we can really ask for is our freedom to get this message out there. And the freedom for us to say it, the freedom for people to listen to it, and then the public is informed and then they'll make a decision as to what they wanna do.
Dr. Terry (56:22.083)
Love it. Thank you, bud.
Dr. Spencer Baron (56:23.735)
Thanks.
You exercise, you feel great, your blood work comes back normal. Could you still be developing heart disease without knowing it? Today we're going to find out. Dr. Jack Wolfson is back on Kraken Backs. Since our last conversation, the heart health discussion has expanded: Apo B, LPA, coronary calcium, HRV, GLP1s now, and post-COVID cardiovascular concerns. But the real question is simple. How do you know your heart?
is actually healthy before something goes wrong. Doctor Jack, welcome back.
Dr. Jack Wolfson (00:34.802)
Thank you so much, Dr. Spencer and Dr. Terry. It's a pleasure to be on. And just love all the stuff you guys are doing. Love the shows, love the interviews. And I think it's a great time as far as information's concerned. I think all this information that people are getting, some people may be you know, again, frustrated by maybe too much information, right? Back in the nineteen seventies, you went to your doctor and like it was my way or the highway, like you had nowhere else to go. Now you've got everything to do, right? You go onto the internet, you go onto your favorite AI plan.
platform, maybe you do three different AI platforms, then you compare what one AI says to the other AI about your treatment plan. but I I certainly believe in in this information age and how amazing it is and for us to really to be informed about what's the best decisions for us. So it's very exciting. And so thanks again for having me on.
Dr. Spencer Baron (01:24.15)
Always great. Let's say you got a forty five year old patient, they exercise, they feel great, their routine blood work looks good, but how do you how confident should that person be that their heart is actually healthy and you know what you know, what could that annual physical be missing?
Dr. Jack Wolfson (01:42.355)
Well, that's a great point. And they should feel confident that if they're eating well and they're exercising, those are two massive areas where people can impact their health and their wellness. And so that that's important. So people could have some sense of confidence based on that. But to say that their routine blood work comes back okay, that's definitely not good enough. And we all know people who ate well and exercised.
And then had a heart attack or dropped dead candidly. So I am a big believer in doing the most advanced testing in the world, looking at all of these different metrics to make sure we're on track for heart health and longevity. It's like if you took your car in to the, to the, you know, to the dealership and you said, hey, check my car and make sure it's okay.
And they did one thing, they checked the gas tank. Right, you wouldn't be very confident that your car is good for another 10,000 miles. But if you take your car to the dealership and you say, Yeah, gimme, gimme the ninety-nine point diagnostic.
Give me the 199 point diagnostic. Well, the more metrics that you're checking, the more metrics they're checking, the more confident you are that your car is gonna make it. Now, there's no guarantees. But that being said, I love checking the most advanced metrics in the world. I love looking at all the intracellular vitamins, minerals, and proteins and fats, and the massive amount of toxin panels and gut panels. I love coming in with a whole stack of data, and then we look at the back.
Things about the individual, and how do we improve those bad markers? And if we do so, that's our metric of success.
Dr. Spencer Baron (03:36.713)
Apo B is you know, a hot biomarker. And if you're under fifty, healthy, active, and and yet your standard cholesterol looks normal, should Apo B still be routinely tested? And what might that reveal?
Dr. Jack Wolfson (03:51.033)
Apple B is a good metric to have. But the problem with mainstream is that it it only represents a nail for them to hammer with a pharmaceutical.
Because the goals and the guidelines as they're set up right now, there's really no way that a person could get to those levels without at least one pharmaceutical class, typically starting off with statin drugs, and then adding in a second class, which is the PCS canine inhibitors, are typically where people go. A third class would be things that block cholesterol absorption from the gut, something like azetomib.
Now, as it relates to I mean a lot of these different things, what my goal really is, is that I want to figure out why your Apo B is what it is, and if it needs improvement, well let's go after the root cause as to why it is elevated. But as it relates to the pharmaceuticals, and I obviously I'd love to dive more into this about what are these pharmaceutical approaches of what people are using, but to answer
Your question, I like the metrics as I said. APOB is one of the metrics. LP little A is one of the metrics. there's vitamin K2 as a metric, there's omega-3 as a metric, there's homocysteine as a metric, there's insulin levels as a metric, right? There's there's really there's there's hundreds of different data points that we can get and we should get if we really want to make sure we're on track.
Dr. Spencer Baron (05:31.831)
There's so many people that come in and say they're on statins and they say I mean, you s you were about to allude to the medication was there is there something that you wanna say about that? 'Cause I know you how you f have a feeling, I know how your your perspective is.
Dr. Jack Wolfson (05:48.306)
Well, let's take a look at statins. So statin drugs lower numbers down. That's not a debate. Statin drugs inhibit an enzyme in the liver called HMG CoA reductase. And when you inhibit that enzyme, you shut down the production of cholesterol. That's the mechanism of action. And
Also, in that is you shut down the production of CoQ10, very important molecule structure for the mitochondria, for all the things that mitochondria does. You also inhibit the production of heme A, which is another protein in the electron transport chain inside the mitochondria. You also interfere with the way that you modulate proteins.
And that affects how proteins work. You interfere with the function of vitamin K, which is why there's data that shows that people who are on statins they have a higher risk of osteoporosis. You interfere with insulin metabolism and utilization, that's why statin drugs increase blood sugar levels and increase the risk of diabetes. That's been proven in many studies as well. So
Those are all of the effects of what happens when you shut down the production of of you know when you shut down that enzyme, HMG coi reductase, that's that's kind of like what we know. Another one is of course is a protein called dolacol, which is a very important steroid-like actually molecule that's in the substantia nigra of the midbrain, which is why there are studies that showed statin drugs increase the risk of Parkinson's-like disorders. So ultimately
Dr. Spencer Baron (07:31.521)
So yeah. No, I was just gonna ask you b I was gonna ask you because some sometimes the you know, a patient will go, yeah, what they told me to take a coenzyme q and or co q ten or whatever you wanna call. Is that enough?
Dr. Jack Wolfson (07:45.852)
You know, I think the reason why you guys like having me on is because I tend to talk like your colleagues that you graduated with. And when you say that, Spencer, I kinda like to say that an analogy we would use is I'm gonna take a hammer and I'm gonna keep hitting you on the foot and I'm gonna tell you to take an anvil because it's good for the pain.
Dr. Spencer Baron (07:53.303)
Yes.
Dr. Jack Wolfson (08:13.24)
So here's here's the here's the hammer, the statin drug, and it's leading to the side effect. But instead of removing the hammer, I'm gonna give you something, I'm gonna give you coQ10 to deal with it. So and the reality is is that I mean there there's so many flaws with that, of course, because the the CoQ10 the body makes is not the CoQ10 that you swallow in a capsule. It's not, it's not.
And then the but the fundamental thing is is that why would we want to reduce our cholesterol levels down? Why would we even want to do that in the first place? Our body, is our body making a mistake? Are we a genetic abnormality? Are we a defect? Are they- I mean, does you know a hundred million people qualify for statin drugs? Are they all defective, you know, humans? So
Fundamentally and again, let th that's the whole side effect profile. But let's talk for a second. Do statin drugs actually work to do what matters? Not do they lower numbers down? We know that. The question is: do statin drugs lower your risk of having a heart attack or having a stroke or dying? And the answer is according to meta-analyses, they do, but it's by a little bit.
That's the reality. Now it's more the the benefits, if you will, go to the people who have the worst amount of disease right now. So the people who have the most amount of coronary disease, maybe they've already had stents, bypass surgeries, they've had three heart attacks. The literature tells us those people benefit more than those people on are on placebo. But even then.
The benefit is not tremendous. And if we say that the benefit, for example, is we reduce statin drugs reduce annual heart attack risk in those people from 6% to 5%. Because that's what the data'll show across all these different studies. And for primary prevention, the data is much less. The data is is fractions of a percent.
Dr. Jack Wolfson (10:36.38)
But we we don't wanna be in the six percent heart attack group or the five percent heart attack group. We wanna know who's got the plan for the zero percent chance of heart attacks.
And that's the world that, you know, the three of us operate in. You know? The other world, they go to the cardiologist, it's a 10-minute office visit. That's all about documentation. And there's no discussion because the the cardiologists are not trained in root cause. All they're trained in is dispensing pharmaceuticals. So it's the writing of the pharmaceutical, and then they'll spend some time defending their position on that against people. Then they'll do the sales tactics, then they'll do the bully tactics.
Dr. Spencer Baron (11:13.783)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Jack Wolfson (11:18.246)
Take this or die when that is purely a lie. Purely a lie. It is malpractice, but it happens every moment of every day.
Dr. Spencer Baron (11:29.261)
That's why we love Jack. All right. I stopped hammering the toe. So let's talk about LP little A. How does that fit into this conversation?
Dr. Jack Wolfson (11:36.422)
Okay. Well, and and let me and let me circle back to if you don't mind hold hold that because let me talk about the PCS canines. Because this is interesting because most recently the FDA approved a drug called Lipfendra.
Dr. Spencer Baron (11:49.45)
yes. Please do.
Dr. Jack Wolfson (11:58.524)
And where they come up with these names, again, I know you guys all laugh behind our backs and stuff like that. And it's it really is hilarious. And what they do is right, is that they pull all these different people, because I've done some of these before many, many, many years ago. They tell you about a drug and they tell you what the generic name is and what it does, and then they start giving you suggestions of of names that you like. And then somehow that comes up with the name. So this is Lipfendra. Lipfendra. And Lipfendra.
Dr. Terry (12:02.236)
Ha ha ha.
Dr. Jack Wolfson (12:27.278)
Is an oral PCS canine inhibitor. So the PCS canine is a protein your liver makes and it signals to break down LDL receptors on the liver, the catcher's mitts. So if you inhibit PCS canine, you have more catcher's mitts to pull LDL out of circulation. And the injectable drug that does that is called Rapatha.
And Rappatha prevents the breakdown of LDL receptors. And Rapatha was studied, and the study results were in 2018, and they looked at people who got Rappatha versus placebo, but everybody was on statin drug. So we don't know anything about Rappatha, what it does by itself.
We don't know I don't want to take a statin, but I'll take Rapatha. Okay. We know it lowers numbers down, but we don't know if it increases heart attacks, decreases heart attacks, no effect on heart attacks. We have no idea what it does. It has not been studied.
Now, of interest, when added to statin drug, the original trial called Fourier showed that Rapatha plus statin, leading to an LDL around 30, more people died in the Rappatha group. Less heart attacks, less strokes, less procedures, but more people died. Okay. Fast forward to Lipfendra. Lipfendra is approved by the FDA and has zero outcomes data.
We know it lowers LDL down. We know it lowers APOB down by sixty percent. But we do not know if it increases heart attacks, decreases heart attacks, has no effect on heart attacks, and we're we have no idea. The FDA will say, well, we're just going off the Rappatha data. And the Rappatha data showed more people died. So I would think before FDA approval, and this is where I would say if if b if I was talking to Bobby Kennedy.
Dr. Jack Wolfson (14:34.33)
I would say, how'd this thing get through, man? And he would say, Jack, you know exactly how it got through. And I would say, Okay, I know how it got through. I I I get it. so that being said, that's Lipfendra. Now, back when I was a cardiology fellow in 2001, statin drugs, of course, were were
Still somewhat in the infancy phase. I mean, yes, they've been around since the late eighties, but you know, d different studies would come out in the nineties and put start pushing the more aggressive use based on trivial benefits, alleged benefits. That's this isn't even to go full conspiratorial and say the whole thing is made up in a trillion dollar industry, which we can entertain that thought. But aside from that, let's take the value for what it is. But
In 2000, 1999, there was a statin drug that was produced that was called the trade name was Baycol by Bayer. Bayer Baycol. And the drug was out for 20 months, approved by the FDA, used by
Hundreds of thousands of people, maybe millions of people. And then in 2001, 20 months after it was released, the FDA pulled it after it had data that found that it directly led to 31 people dying from the drug, side effects from the drug. So they pulled it. So I'm not saying people are gonna live or die on Lipvendra. It's probably gonna wind up
having a small amount of benefit like Rapatha does and it's easier because it's a and it's an oral and not an injectable and patient compliance will be better and Merkel i make a lot of money from it. But you know, again, I'm a root cause cardiologist and none of these pharmaceuticals are root cause.
Dr. Spencer Baron (16:27.543)
Hm. Back to the L P little A and how it fits into the conversation.
Dr. Jack Wolfson (16:30.95)
Thank you. So LP little A is a genetic marker. And I'm one of the people I I love our genetics. I'm so grateful for our genetics, right? We can run and jump and see and feel and you know, we can be part of the process of making babies. We're pretty special, special creations. However, we got here, we're pretty freaking special. And our DNA is spectacular. Now, why would our DNA
Code for 15% of the population to have elevated LPA. There has to be some reason that 15%, this isn't some gene mutation that leads to a third eyeball, you know, or some rare form of cancer. This is this is something that 15% of people have. Now, what LPA likely does.
Is that it is a it does help with coagulability. In the case of trauma, if you are bleeding out, that those people probably have some benefit as far as survival, which is why it's remained. Or maybe in the case of a pregnant woman.
Those women with LP little A in a Paleolithic time had less chances of you know hemorrhage and dying, and therefore the gene survived. So let's move now to the 21st century and say, well, okay, women aren't as likely to die, men aren't as likely to die have trauma. Is there benefit to it? Or there may not be benefit to it. We don't know.
We do know that it increases the risk of cardiovascular disease because it is a hyper coagulable factor. and then
Dr. Jack Wolfson (18:28.964)
In addition to that, there may be something else that is inherently more dangerous about it as a lipid particle. But the literature really says that it's not just LPA alone, it's other things that go along with it. So if someone has LPA and inflammation, they're at much higher risk than if you have LPA and no inflammation. So that's kind of the story of LPA. I think it's a marker everybody should know. I think in some ways it could be most.
motivational for people. Hey, I have that. I think it does explain some semblance of family history. But I'm again I just want to reiterate, I believe our genetics are perfect.
However, we got here, our genetics are perfect. It's all the epigenetics that are the problem. And family history is true because we eat, live, and think like our family members. We eat the same garbage food, live the same unhealthy lifestyle, have all the mental, you know, mindset issues, childhood trauma, PTSD, emotional traumas that our family members did, and therefore we suffer the same diseases.
Dr. Spencer Baron (19:39.575)
Good explanation and let's talk beyond a a a standard lipid panel, you know, what what should be on everybody's kinda cardiovascular dashboard and especially now?
Dr. Jack Wolfson (19:49.372)
Yeah, again, you know, and by the way, statin drugs increase LP little A. That's that that's in the literature. PCSK nines decrease LPA by about twenty to thirty percent. Time release niacin decreases LPA by about
Ten to fifteen percent. I've seen some dramatic changes personally in my patients without pharmaceuticals. I on my whole plan of what I do. Like recently I did a a webinar where I showed, you know, the data of somebody whose level was 72 and on on next visit it was 27. Like that doesn't happen. and if you ask any cardiologist, they will deny that it's even a possibility. But nonetheless, I've got I've got the person, I've got his testimonial, you know, yada yada.
The other thing though is that for somebody with with LP little A, I like to really work on the coagulability side, and not with aspirin or a pharmaceutical, but that's where I think products like natokinase, serapeptase, some of these fibrinolytic enzymes can be beneficial. I'm I'm a big big fan of this product called Artericil, which is a unique unique form of seaweed that actually many cardiologists who are non-holistic still still recommend that particular product. They've got about a thousand cardiologists.
Who are actively recommending their product, those people at Cal Roy. and I'll be talking about their particular product actually at the event in in Florida coming up in in November. But in any case, there's the the more data that we get.
The more I think it tells us about are we on track. You know, can can Spencer and you know, you know, and Terry, can you guys plan a family trip, you know, for five years ago, five years from now, with full confidence that you're gonna be on there? Well, if you have a whole data set of metrics that says, your numbers look really good.
Dr. Jack Wolfson (21:40.188)
Well then maybe you're like, you know, I'm not gonna take out insurance on that trip. I'm gonna be on that trip to Europe in five years, I'll be just fine. Yet if your data set looks bad, you may say, Yeah, you know, maybe I will take out that insurance on the trip. I don't know. I apologize for the roosters in the background. The roosters, they you know, you think they o it's only in the morning, they go all day long, but Anywho.
Dr. Spencer Baron (21:45.136)
huh.
Dr. Terry (22:00.286)
Yeah.
Dr. Spencer Baron (22:00.909)
I think it's a great sound effect. Wake up everybody. So I the regul regular cardiovascular, you know, panel or standard lipid panel is is what most doctors do. What would you suggest as a list on someone's dashboard for twenty twenty six?
Dr. Jack Wolfson (22:04.294)
Yes, yes.
Dr. Jack Wolfson (22:16.432)
Yes. Yeah, and that's you know, so you know, things that you know, maybe insurance cover, you know, homocysteine is a good marker to check. When elevated risk factor, the answer is is better B vitamins and better methylators. And I do everything natural. I've kind of moved beyond, you know, synthetic vitamins and stuff like that. I use, you know, organ based food, organ-based supplements, you know, fish fish row in a capsule, you know, stuff like that. Food first mentality.
There are again many different markers of oxidative stress, you know, the rusting of the body, oxidized LDL, myeloperoxidase, urine for peroxides. There are markers you know of of inflammation. HSCRP, for example, would be the best marker of inflammation. There's the intracellular vitamins, minerals. I love checking fatty acids, right? So look at your omega-3 index, and if that's high and you're doing
It with food, you're in a good place. If it's low, you got it. Eat more seafood. Vitamin D, everybody knows, is a tremendous marker. But the answer is not to take vitamin D supplements if it's low, the answer is to get more sunshine onto your solar panel and to build up the entire solar system, which your body is. It's a solar system built to collect light from the sun.
And you fuel your solar system with food, with the correct food. So the sun goes on to the man. I'm a big outside guy, man. Big outside and that's by the way, it's a free strategy. And the three of us live in places where, you know, we we we you know we can achieve that goal.
Dr. Spencer Baron (23:49.037)
And you're you're big on being outside, right?
Dr. Jack Wolfson (24:04.784)
Me more so 'cause I'm in Costa Rica, which is why I'm here. but for our colleagues and people listening who are in y you know, my hometown of Chicago, Spencer, are you a New Yorker originally? Okay, I I I I thought so.
Dr. Spencer Baron (24:18.921)
I was. Yeah, well, before I was eleven years old. Yeah.
Dr. Jack Wolfson (24:22.31)
Yeah. So, you know, so again, like your parents, you know, it was a blessing to get you out of there. And those are all, you know, you know, good cities, and I don't want to denigrate the people who live there. It's just it's not a healthy place to live. You're not gonna live long in those places. So, you know, that's what we really tend to focus on. you know, again, you know, as far as getting that solar panel in the sun. And
Listen, all we can do is give people information, right? You guys give, you know, you know, patients and clients information. This is all information. What they do with it is up to them. But I'm telling you right now that you know, you gotta move to a sunny climate. For every five to seven weeks, you are in the Midwest in January, my hometown of Chicago, Milwaukee, Minneapolis, you know, Calgary, Winnipeg, Toronto. You gotta spend five to seven days.
in a in a warm climate, somewhere preferably equatorial, and and you gotta be outside. And these are the strategies that we use. Now what's interesting, what happens too, Spencer and and Terry, is that when you are outside in the sun, the solar panel converts cholesterol in the panel, the the sun hits the panel, which is your skin, and it converts cholesterol into vitamin D. Vitamin D levels go up and then cholesterol naturally goes down.
So sometimes abnormal cholesterol in Apo B is a sunshine deficiency syndrome.
Dr. Spencer Baron (25:50.497)
Interesting. I did not know that. That's great to know.
Dr. Jack Wolfson (25:52.784)
And that's co again, it's totally it's totally free and the literature is there that supports it. And it's common sense. It's just common sense things. But the Ds have really lost the the common sense, obviously, if they ever had it.
Dr. Terry (26:09.865)
Hey let me ask you, when when should someone consider a coronary calcium scan and does a and does a score of zero truly mean you're clear?
Dr. Spencer Baron (26:09.933)
Go ahead, Terry.
Dr. Jack Wolfson (26:22.68)
the answer twofold question, right? I never recommend a coronary calcium scan. So the answer is never on part A. you know, with that. And then part B, if you have a score of a zero on a coronary calcium scan, you still may have soft plaque and you still may be at risk, although a score of zero prognostically.
Is better than a score of a hundred, which is better than a score of a thousand, you know, or above. So the higher the number, the higher the risk. The question is, what do you do with that number? And in mainstream cardiology, everybody with any number gets a statin drug. people with a score of a zero will still get recommended a drug with their mantra of lower for longer. And
They came up with lower for longer, which means that tens of millions of more people qualify for statin therapy. And if you don't achieve your goal, then they'll add on other drugs. And they're even recommending starting this in children. And I think we've got a real problem.
Dr. Terry (27:39.895)
my god. So if their cardiologist is recommending this this calcium scan, what would you say they would a better something that's better or a better imaging that they should ask for?
Dr. Jack Wolfson (27:52.752)
As far as imaging is concerned, you can do ultrasound. You can do CIMT where you can check your carotids and stuff like that. But the question you know, these are all as we talked about before, these are just metrics. The the ninety nine point
Assessment when you go to the car dealership. So, what are the 99 points? Like we talked about. These are markers of inflammation, oxidative stress, homocysteine, LP little A, apolipoprotein BA ratios, intracellular vitamins and minerals, proteins and fats in the omega-3s. For example, vitamin K2 has been studied.
And vitamin K2 keeps calcium in your bones and out of your arteries and even can contribute to plaque reversal. Wouldn't you want to know what your K2 level is floating around in your blood? Wouldn't you want to know what your K2 level is inside your cells? I would and I do. What about our gut? We know gut microbiome.
Is not only linked to cardiovascular health or disease, it's also linked to brain health or disease or cancer risk, and all these various things. Wouldn't you want to know about your gut microbiome? What about leaky gut or intestinal hyperpermeability? If you have factors of intestinal hyperpermeability like anti lipopolysaccharide antibodies, which means that you are getting bacterial endo and exotoxins into your bloodstream, all linked to heart disease and more.
Wouldn't you want to know? And therefore fix it? Yeah. what about all the toxins? What if you're loaded with mold mycotoxins? Plastic. Plastic is a massive risk factor for cardiovascular disease and everything else. Wouldn't you want to know how much plastic is in your body circulating around in the form of vi bisphenol A or phthalates? Pesticides, glyphosate. Do you want to know that? What about metals? You know? What about mercury, lead, arsenic, cadmium?
Dr. Jack Wolfson (29:50.416)
Aluminum. Would you want to know that? So these advanced metrics, people just they're they're either they don't know, or it's not accessible because these things are not covered by insurance. They can be definitely an investment, which I would encourage people to get. But these are all super, you know, important metrics. And we don't have to radiate ourselves to find out. And coronary artery calcium, that's a that's a diagnosis of a lifetime. That represents the the
Coronary artery disease that's been forming since you were in your mother's belly. It doesn't tell us about what's going on right now. I want to know do I have oxidative stress right now? Inflammation? Right now. Homocysteine? Right now. I want to know my numbers right now. And coronary calcification testing doesn't tell us that. So it is interesting that insurance doesn't pay for CAC testing.
Why not? Why don't they pay for it? Because they know it's not a good test. They know that it doesn't help people and their outcomes. And they know it's what's called a loss leader. So the loss leader means the hospital sells it to the individual for $99 and people go after it like crazy. But you guys are both in the industry. Do you know how much it costs?
I and I don't know either, but let's just say how much is it does it cost to run a CT scan on someone? All the scheduling, the technician, the equipment to do so. Let's just say if you were to break it down like an accountant, let's just say that the the it costs the system $750.
To perform this particular test that they sell for $100. Why would they do that? Because they're good people? Because they care about you, Spencer? Because they care about Spencer, he's such a nice guy. We're gonna give him this deal. We're gonna give him this deal. They know it's a loss leader because they know it's gonna turn into massive revenue once they start billing insurance. Now you have a billable diagnosis: coronary artery disease. Now
Dr. Jack Wolfson (32:07.982)
now we can do nuclear stress tests, we can do angiograms, we can do copies, we can do follow-ups, and it's just the the gravy train, you know, gets gets gets moving, leaves the station. So hopefully that's that clears up my thoughts on CAC testing. but
Dr. Spencer Baron (32:26.165)
That was good. Yeah.
Dr. Jack Wolfson (32:27.836)
But milli but I mean there everybody's getting this test done. You guys are in the trenches too. You know what people are saying, what everybody's talking about this. The other one that kills me too is the Pronovo scan, the total body MRI scan. What would be the possibility of putting your body into a massive magnet, turning on the magnet, having every molecule and atom and electron and proton in your body twisted?
And then released and then gaining images from that. they may find a tumor. you know, the the marketing behind it, I don't know if I ever told you guys this story. Even before I ever became a holistic practitioner, and I was driving on the highway in Chicago, and there's billboards everywhere, right? And the billboard I would put up there says, Got a headache? It could be a brain tumor. Dial 1-800, you know, brain CT.
How many guys, Spencer, are driving how many men and women are driving past that sign and they're like, I have a headache right now? And they drive right into our drive-thru location. We would have made an absolute fortune from doing that. Don't steal that idea, Spencer. That's my idea. So okay. So anyways, so what we would say is you know, again, is that
Dr. Spencer Baron (33:43.031)
Yeah.
Not not today.
Dr. Jack Wolfson (33:52.39)
You know, I everybody's on board about this. And to the to the typical cardiologist, all it is is that okay, you've got coronary calcification, you're in the system, take the drug, keep taking the drug, come back every three to six months, we'll keep checking your levels, and then we'll come up with a vaccine, which is the next thing, is the MRNA vaccine to lower down your cholesterol levels, you know, to close to zero. I don't think it's gonna be a good strategy, but people will do it.
Dr. Spencer Baron (34:18.325)
So twisted. now is a hot time to bring up COVID. People are still reporting palpitations, exercise intolerance, POTS like symptoms and abnormal HRV. you know, but here's the controversial question. Could COVID leave la long lasting cardiovascular damage and if it can, are we actually testing for it? And do we are we even doing enough?
Dr. Jack Wolfson (34:43.406)
I think we we we don't know obviously what's happening to the long term for these people. Whether it's from the the actual whatever COVID was or what the treatment was or or the preventive injection was for it. We don't really know what the long term is gonna is gonna show here. What we what we do know is that people are struggling for a whole variety of reasons.
And they do develop, you know, POTS. They do develop dysautonomia, which really is we're talking about this part of the brain and the neurologic system called the autonomics that leads to a constellation of symptoms. In this case, maybe you're talking about POTS. And I've seen probably a dozen cases of POTS related to either COVID or the shot. And we just kind of go
Through the same methodology, right? Just you know, what I call the one hundred year heart method. Eat well, live well, think well, do the most advanced testing in the world, use evidence-based supplements and biohacking strategies, and that's the healing method for for everything. as far as testing actually, you know, kind of what's going on f I I think there may be some things again, could we test our levels of spike protein and stuff like that and
Do do biohacks like a therapeutic plasma exchange help to pull out spike protein and stuff like that? Can we use products like nato kinase and and fibroinalytics to help break up some of the spike? Yeah, I mean th there there may be some some some signals that point to some benefit there. biohacks like you know, retraining, it's very popular in the you know chiropractic neurology space for people to do a lot of this. you know, again, retraining of the
autonomic nervous system as it relates to this, to the limbic system as it relates to this and and crossover in those particular areas. so I think there's room for all of that. But I think one thing that I'll make real clear for everybody is that we need to question everything. We need to accept our patients for the truth that they're telling us. And it is always our job to figure out why.
Dr. Jack Wolfson (37:00.21)
So back in the day, right, somebody came to me and they're like, I'm having palpitations, skips, flips, my heart races out of nowhere. And so yeah, we'll run some tests, everything looks clear, and I and you prescribe Prozac, you know, get out of my get out of my office, crazy person. Now I look back at it on obviously with a lot of remorse for the way that I behaved. But again, I you know, that's all in the rear view mirror and that's the way that I was trained. but for the person who comes in with you know and and they appear to be crazy.
We gotta continue to peel back that onion. We gotta try and figure out why. You know, contemporary of of your guys, John D'Anafrio, who was the head of the chiropractic neurology board, brilliant, brilliant chiropractor, great, great, great man. His his you know mantra, and I was and I was I had the pleasure of knowing him, was, you know, there's you know, Doctor One More Step. Like we're always taking one more step to to to look into this, to go to go deeper.
Dr. Spencer Baron (37:42.593)
Yeah.
Dr. Jack Wolfson (37:57.564)
To keep looking. And I will tell you now, as long as it's on my head, whenever I think about anything right now, I always think about living in a home with water damage mold andor bacteria as a root cause of why so many people are sick. So as people get you know this message right now, I would highly encourage you to look into water damage mold andor bacteria into your home. And don't think do do not do not rest on the fact that you don't have it.
Consider yourself you do have it, and then you need the testing to prove that you don't. That's the way you have to ro brand new house, it doesn't matter. Houses are built out of popsicle sticks. You live in a popsicle stick house, you're toast.
Dr. Terry (38:46.315)
Let's talk about GLP ones which is a very hot topic and they're starting to change the health terms and people are starting to talk about not only for weight loss but as a cardiovascular health whatever you want to call it. What's your opinions on the GLP ones?
Dr. Jack Wolfson (39:04.156)
Yeah, I mean, obviously, you guys are giving me a loaded question. You know what my opinion is. And I'm just I I'm a root cause guy, and GLP deficiency is not. One thing that's always concerned me when I started reading the early literature on GLPs was that it was something that slowed gastric motility, gastrointestinal motility. And whenever I think about slowed down gastrointestinal motility, I think about cancer. I think about gastrointestinal cancer.
Dr. Spencer Baron (39:08.396)
Ha ha ha.
Dr. Jack Wolfson (39:34.09)
And at this point, I'm not aware of the signals, but it's early. It's early. And we'll see kind of what happens in the long term. I personally I love eating. Like I'm not a drug addict. I'm not an alcoholic. You know, I I don't have any other addictions that get me, you know, satiated or stimulated. Aside from I enjoy food, real food, of course.
So why would I want to take something that takes away that joy and that pleasure? And then you hear the stories of these people, they tend to lose pleasure for everything. You know, they you know, relationships, their job, family, friends, things that they liked. So
You know, again, it's not a matter of do, you know, do people have precipitous loss weight loss from it? They do. you know, you know, cardiovascular and cardiometabolic metrics get better, outcomes get better, they do. But I just I I I don't I don't see where I would necessarily recommend that. in any way, I never have, of course. people talk about microdosing it. By the way, there are you know natural ways to, you know, to improve on all these functions. One of my favorite supplements.
Is berberine and berberine, berberine, curcumin, risveritrol, turmeric, quercetin, they tend to activate a lot of these different genes, AMPK, SERTUIN genes. They tend to activate a lot of the things that do similar modalities, but they do so in a natural way, as as opposed to a synthetic peptide.
You know, I mean, you could tell, guys, I'm really popular at all these conferences. You know, all the natural conferences where, like, you know, everybody and their mother is selling peptides. Peptides work, they have definitely effects, but I think that they've also got some bad effects that we just don't know yet. In some cases, we do. I mean, we hear case reports and stuff like that all the time. But, you know, the wild west of peptides.
Dr. Jack Wolfson (41:47.332)
I'm just I'm just not there yet. I'm not saying like never, and again, there may be a room and kind of you know, in in like you know, wha what what are the biohacking phases? Like if someone's doing everything inside of our method, eat well, live well, think well, and they're not where they want to be, or maybe they've got some orthopedic issues, guys, right, and they're thinking, I took this GLP, you know, or no excuse me, I took this peptide on my best friend's advice, and I feel like a million bucks. Like Spencer, what are we supposed to say to that guy? Okay, fine.
I'm just I I I'm I'm just not there personally yet. I don't deal with a lot of you know orthopedic issues on people. I'm still gonna you know kind of going after the root cause, you know. So I'll I'll reserve judgment on the whole peptide industry. I think we are in danger really of
You know, kind of being being accused of the things that we accuse others to be. you know, you're just a pharmaceutical pusher. Yeah, well, you're just a, you know, supplement pusher. You're just you know, a a a you know, peptide pusher. You're making plenty of money over here. I'm not afraid of accusations, obviously. but I also look at it, you know, for myself. Like, what would I want to do for myself? you know, you gotta take these various peptides, they're anti agriculture.
Their longevity. Yeah, I'm not gonna take them myself. I'd rather take you know, my capsules of unvaccinated elk, liver, heart, and kidney, as opposed to you know, which is loaded with peptides that my body needs from nature in the perfect amount, as opposed to something made in a in you know in a lab.
Dr. Spencer Baron (43:16.951)
Yeah.
Dr. Spencer Baron (43:27.287)
From China.
Dr. Terry (43:27.862)
Beautiful. yeah, from China. You know, a and I've heard
Dr. Jack Wolfson (43:31.569)
I mean I mean again, I mean I you know, but it's just I you know listen, I mean, people make bad products in the US, they make them in China. I I I guess I would just say that if you're really down and out despite doing most of the things, give things a try, but keep a real close eye on on side effects. And that's maybe where like, you know, all these advanced metrics that we're talking about, they can be the signal that people get before the obvious symptoms show up.
Dr. Terry (44:00.821)
That's you know, that's fantastic. Yeah, I heard you one time talk about you know, you can still be lean and have a problem and and I remember was it Fisk that was a runner that here's this lean guy, super fit, runs marathons and yeah he still had a heart attack. You know, what are what's what's most athletes missing when they assume fitness equals heart health and that we should look be looking at things different?
Dr. Jack Wolfson (44:24.668)
Yeah, that's awesome. Well, I think what happens is most people who do these endurance activities, and I can't speak the Jim Fix is I I don't know the full story as far as like what he was eating or again, th there's so many different factors. You know, what w we know we know that he ran.
and we know that again after that I don't know anything else. So you know how we I I don't know how he ate. I don't know how much sunshine he got, how his sleep was. I don't know if he lived in mold, didn't live in mold. I don't know if he had high levels of plastic, phthalates, parabens, injections, pharmaceuticals, and I don't know his mindset.
I don't know if he was abused as a child. I don't know if he had PTSD for whatever. Like, I don't I know nothing about that guy.
Now, one thing I do know about a lot of endurance athletes is that they're heavy on carbs, but also artificial junk carbs. Like I used to, I used to run marathons and triathlons myself. And there was one race that I used to do down in Tucson, Arizona, and it was a it was a 112-mile bike ride. And this is back around 2003, 2004. And every 15 miles, they had a crispy cream donut stand set up.
Dr. Terry (45:43.54)
No jeez. Wow.
Dr. Jack Wolfson (45:43.73)
Up. But here's the kicker, guys. I stopped at every one of those stands and I ate those. I ate those. This is before, you know, the awakening of Dr. Jack Wolfson, the awakening of me, thanks to thank god for for my wife, Dr. Heather, a chiropractor. you know, so
I think that's, you know, because you know what, you pack a goo, some kind of energy bar. So that's a factor in it as well. Now, there is the TV show that was on years ago called America's Biggest Loser. And that's I don't know if Gillian Michaels was from that show, but Bob Harper was from that show. And Bob Harper
Dr. Spencer Baron (46:08.545)
Yeah, yeah.
Dr. Jack Wolfson (46:28.166)
For all intents and purposes, looks like Iron Man, right? I mean Bob Harper, he's our age, he looks great, he's incredibly fit, you know, maybe he talks so I never really watched the show, but
Talks about diet, you know, he's telling these people, get on the treadmill and run, and they all these obese people and they're whipping them and stuff like that, all at this TV production. And then Bob Harper has a massive heart attack. And then he becomes a huge spokesperson for LP Little A. And LP Little A awareness. And of course, this is simultaneous when Rapatha comes out. This is the only way to lower it down. Stay tuned. I don't know anything about Bob Harper. I know he looks good.
But I don't know how he ate. I don't know what when the cameras were off. I don't know what skeletons were in his closet. I have no idea about his mindset. I do know the guy's in front of a television in a New York studio all the time. In front of a television camera. I know that's not good for all the reasons we already discussed. I don't know what time the guy goes to bed. Get this stat, guys.
Sleep time variability. People who go to sleep, this is new data. People who go to sleep at variable times. One night it's 10 p.m., the next night it's midnight, the next night it's eleven, the next night it's 1230, on and on and on. Sleep variability time. They have double the risk of having a heart attack compared to people who go to sleep at a regular time.
So the person who goes to sleep at variable times has double the risk of the person who goes to sleep every night between 9930. That's a big signal. It's a big factor. And so what do we do with that, right, Dr. Terry? We tell people, hey, this is how you should do it and cut your risk in half compared to those people who don't. And then some people come back and say, What do I do?
Dr. Jack Wolfson (48:34.916)
I'm in sales. I travel. My kids come home at variable times. My wife is a night owl. My husband works the night shift. Listen, all we can do is give them the information, right? You know, in your guys' world, like this is, you know, this is your your diagnosis. This is the plan that I would give you. Follow the plan or don't, you know, I I can't force you.
Dr. Spencer Baron (49:00.522)
Hmm. I like it.
let's see. We're gonna you know what? I was gonna ask you a question, but I'm gonna go right into the rapid fire questions, which mm if you recall, it's gonna require a little more of a brief answer. Are you ready? There's five of All right, here we go. Go. He he just he just got psyched up. There you go. All right, Doctor Jack, what in your opinion is the most misunderstood thing about heart disease?
Dr. Terry (49:19.255)
Go. Look at him. He's all s he's locked in.
Dr. Jack Wolfson (49:32.219)
there's always a root cause and it's not genetic.
Dr. Spencer Baron (49:36.736)
Love it. Question number two. When you are not carrying around propane bottles or large fruit, what is your favorite way to exercise on vacation? Nice. All right, all right. You're either ripping through it. It's good. Question number
Dr. Jack Wolfson (49:47.322)
Mountain bike.
Dr. Jack Wolfson (49:53.508)
I I I mean believe me, I'm happy to talk about all these individual topics as much as you want. I'm so happy you watched that carrying propane tanks and carrying exact fruits. You get all these people, they're inside in the gym, you know, and they're larging around dumbbells and look at me. I'm I'm in the artificial light. I got all the chemicals, all the EMF, I'm in the gym. You know, recent meme said the longest lived people on earth are not in the gym.
Dr. Terry (50:01.368)
Ha ha ha.
Dr. Jack Wolfson (50:22.662)
They're in the garden.
Dr. Spencer Baron (50:24.53)
Yes. Whew. We've been hearing more about that. Super good.
Dr. Terry (50:30.599)
I need to check one thing. What was those fruit you were carrying? 'Cause they were frickin' massive.
Dr. Jack Wolfson (50:36.146)
So that interestingly enough is called a jackfruit and it's
Dr. Spencer Baron (50:40.182)
Ch
Dr. Terry (50:40.885)
okay.
Dr. Jack Wolfson (50:42.148)
It actually, so it's got these big massive seeds inside when it's ripe. And what's crazy is it tastes like you know juicy fruit chewing gum, you know, from back in the day that kind of has that kind of flavor, you know, to it. And I've also have carried around you know racks of of of bananas and then also racks of coconuts as well. So like they'll hit the coconuts off the tree. There'll be six or seven attached to a branch, and those things are are are pretty darn heavy. So here I'm walking around.
Dr. Spencer Baron (50:53.855)
yeah.
Yeah.
Dr. Spencer Baron (51:01.684)
Yeah.
Dr. Jack Wolfson (51:12.042)
Barefoot with the propane tanks, I was wearing my sh with I was wearing sandals, and that's from a company called Grounds. G-R-U-N-D-Z. Reach out to those guys for sponsorship of your podcast. And those are grounding shoes and the sandals, and really they're super comfortable too. so because otherwise I'd be walking on rocks. My 19-year-old, he can walk, you know, walk over hot coals. My 55-year-old feet are a little bit ginger still, so I'm I'm working on that.
Dr. Terry (51:38.615)
There you go. Sorry for interrupting, Sans.
Dr. Spencer Baron (51:41.066)
No, no, no. That was a perfect. That was great. All right, question number three. You get one meal for the rest of your life. I have a feeling it's gonna be a jackfruit. But anyway, no concern about calories, cholesterol, toxins, or longevity. What is Jack eating?
Dr. Jack Wolfson (51:57.536)
Chicago Deep Dish Pizza. Specifically pan pizza from Duwey's Pizzeria. Now there was the chain Unos, like the original Unos came from Chicago, and then they developed the chain Unos, but it's sister restaurants, and these are these are hundred-year-old restaurants, hundred-year-old ovens. And I candidly I've not had this food in a long time. But if to answer your question, it would be a deep dish, Chicago deep dish pan pizza.
Dr. Spencer Baron (52:00.111)
Dr. Terry (52:24.161)
So so we obviously we don't we we don't get in the debate which is better Chicago pizza or New York pizza.
Dr. Spencer Baron (52:25.175)
I'm with ya.
Dr. Jack Wolfson (52:32.378)
I listen, if you're from Chicago, you say Chicago, if you're from everywhere else, you say New York.
Dr. Spencer Baron (52:32.811)
Huh?
Dr. Spencer Baron (52:37.824)
Yeah That's right. Good. Question
Dr. Jack Wolfson (52:41.318)
And I and I'll be happy to have that debate on the next interview. I any time guys. Bring it on. I'll I'll I'll I'll defend that one like I defend anti statin, you know, dialogue.
Dr. Terry (52:45.437)
Ha ha ha.
Dr. Spencer Baron (52:45.472)
There you go.
Dr. Spencer Baron (52:50.762)
Yeah. Of all things. That'll be question number one. All right, question number four. Are you are saturated fats still as evil as you once thought?
Dr. Jack Wolfson (53:02.35)
no, certainly not. And that's interesting because back let me answer this one a little bit longer. Back when I was in w it was around two thousand, I was on a mountain biking trip in Costa Rica with random people. We c we left Chicago, came down to Costa Rica, and the I was thirty years old at the time, and then the head of the trip, he was fifty-four, and I got a coconut, and I open up the coconut, I'm eating the coconut, I offer him some of the coconut, you know, just like this, you know, thick right out of the shell, just delicious, fresh coconut. And he said, I can't eat that, it's too high in saturated fat.
Dr. Spencer Baron (53:06.561)
Yeah.
Dr. Jack Wolfson (53:32.104)
cardiologist said. And I looked at him even back then before I knew anything about natural. I'm like, this is just insanity that, you know, you would think coconut's bad. And then you got and cultivate, you know, coconut is the kind of you know, just the like the poster child for saturated fat really, in addition to eggs and and meat and stuff like that. But islands in the South Pacific, the people live on coconut, fifty percent of their diet is coconut based and they live forever despite the fact they all smoke, you know, Marlboro Reds, you know, courtesy of the American military. So
coconut, saturated fat. I've got no worries about saturated fat. It is part of a healthy overall eat well, live well, think well strategy.
Dr. Spencer Baron (54:12.324)
Excellent answer. Excellent. That was great, Jack. Thanks. All right, last question. Question number five. You make it to 100 years old. Your heart is still ticking and you're sitting around a table with your family. What has to hap what has to have happened in your life for you to look around and say, yeah, that was a hell of a ride.
Dr. Jack Wolfson (54:35.928)
man, that's that's a tough one. And that's a real tough one to answer, you know, quickly. And I I'm a little bit stumped. You know, I guess what has to happen is that, yes, I am in mental and physical good shape. Probably not mountain biking, probably not surfing. but let's say I'm enjoyable to be around and I'm actually self-sufficient. I think that would be a good physical thing.
As I would look around though, I would hope that we are in a place where the message that we're giving people is always primary. And that and that's what won the day. It wasn't the pharmaceutical industry that won the day. It wasn't the mandates that won the day. It was natural root cause health that really was the victor. And
To look around at your family, what would be your children and your grandchildren and your great grandchildren and know that they are reaping those benefits, that they are living their best life because of it, that I think would be the ultimate goal that that I would have in that scenario.
Dr. Spencer Baron (55:50.124)
Doctor Jack Wolfson, that was one hell of an ending and I'll tell you, man, thank you. You're a definitely a gift to healthcare in the way we should be looking at it. Thank you very much.
Dr. Jack Wolfson (56:02.344)
Well, I appreciate you guys so much for having me on and for me and allowing me to get this message out there, you know, you know, to the world. And that's all we can really ask for is our freedom to get this message out there. And the freedom for us to say it, the freedom for people to listen to it, and then the public is informed and then they'll make a decision as to what they wanna do.
Dr. Terry (56:22.083)
Love it. Thank you, bud.
Dr. Spencer Baron (56:23.735)
Thanks.